Home
Store
Membership
Codes, Standards & Guidelines
Education
Certification & Testing
 
 

Bulletin Board Archive

Bookmark and Share
ICC Bulletin Board   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» ICC Bulletin Board » Code Chat » Plumbing, Mechanical and Fuel Gas Codes » Commercial Kitchen

   
Author Topic: Commercial Kitchen
Russ
Contributor


Member Rated:
5
 - posted      Profile for Russ           Edit/Delete Post 
What defines a commercial kitchen? If a non-residential building has a double oven, four foot stove top burner, 3-compartment sink, two dishwashers and a hand sink would this require a grease interceptor and type II hoods? What if all of the appliances are residential grade? I have this configuration in the basement of a church open to a 4000 square foot banquet room and the church is telling me this is not a commercial kitchen because all of the appliances are residential grade and do not want to install the hoods or have a grease interceptor. How do other jurisdictions deal with churches. I'm sure I will be struck by lightening.
Posts: 17 | From: Windsor, Co. USA | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
north star
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for north star           Edit/Delete Post 
`

Russ,

In this particular jurisdiction, we treat the "non-residential" applications just like a commercial kitchen. A fire suppression system over the stoves, ...Type 1 exhaust system construction ( not Type II ), ...a Type K fire extinguisher near the stoves, and an appropriately sized grease interceptor for sure. Around these parts, churches cooking in their fellowship halls and adjacent areas are a major concern and they also tend to want exemptions to the adopted codes and ordinances, ...imagine that! [Eek!] Seems kinda hypocritical to me and very unethical, but I am a lowly sinner and gub' ment servant, so my opinion doesn't count for much. I am digressing too much...


Your area may be different in that the BO and Fire Chief/Marshall may not see your particular application in the same way. Also, what policies does your Public Works Dept. have regarding the dumping/depositing of F.O.G. into your sanitary sewer system? Again, `round these parts it is a BIG issue and expense to the jurisdiction to clean out [ i.e. - retro-actively ] vs. having each creator of F.O.G. direct their wastes into an approved grease interceptor AND having those grease interceptors regularly cleaned out and deposited into an approved dumping site or processing site [ i.e.- proactively ]. Again, around here it continues to be a BIG issue in that no one wants to pay for their wastes. There have been documented cases where a certain grease interceptor cleaning entity came and cleaned out the interceptor, only to drive to the nearest secluded location and dump their tanks onto the ground or the nearest moving water source. It's the "greedy way" isn't it... [Mad]

Hope this helps!

`

Posts: 245 | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
jim baird
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
5
 - posted      Profile for jim baird           Edit/Delete Post 
Our state fire marshal weighs in on this kind of question and yours may too.

Ours allows residential equipment but forbids any activity except "warming". No cooking period. Designers call it a "catering kitchen".

Otherwise the mechanical code prohibits use of residential grade equipment in non-res use, does it not?

Grease trap issue may also be addressed on the local level.

[ 09-01-2009, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: jim baird ]

--------------------
IRC Combination, ICC Commercial Building, ICC Plans Examiner, SBCCI Housing Rehab

Posts: 1733 | From: Comer, GA USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
north star
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for north star           Edit/Delete Post 
`

Russ,

BTW, we have a church fellowship hall project in the works right now, and they are squirming at the requirements of a commercial kitchen status too!

`

Posts: 245 | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
fatboy
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for fatboy           Edit/Delete Post 
We look at it as , if it's not residential, it's commercial. Grade of appliances has nothing to do with it.

4000 s.f., OL factor of 15, 267 OL? Sounds commercial to me, including requiring a Type I hood and Grease interceptor. I've seen what happens with these churches, they'll pack it out, and cook everything. The residential appliances can be replaced in a heartbeat.

--------------------
Arguing with an inspector is like wrestling with a pig in mud.....
after a while you realize the pig enjoys it!

1997 FLSTF

Posts: 2335 | From: Northern Colorado | Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Russ
Contributor


Member Rated:
5
 - posted      Profile for Russ           Edit/Delete Post 
The local sanitation district has stated that they do not consider a churh as a grease producing occupancy and has waived the interceptor. Fine, but per section 507.2.3 of the 06 IMC, domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes require a type I or II hood. The church is saying, this kitchen is not used for commercial purposes. I agree, theres only two types of kitchens, residential and commercial. This is not residential.
Posts: 17 | From: Windsor, Co. USA | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
dsjtecserv
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for dsjtecserv           Edit/Delete Post 
The code does not hinge on the building occupancy of the kitchen, it hinges on the use to which the appliance is put. Unless the appliance is actually used for commercial purposes, it is just a residential appliance that happens to be in a non-residential building, and the code clearly intends to not require a hood for such situations.

I'm not saying this is or is not a commercial use -- that will have to be a call based on considered judgment. But the decision needs to be based on a realistic assessment of the use of the appliance, not an artificial distinction based on the occupancy.

Dave

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Posts: 619 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
mtlogcabin
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for mtlogcabin           Edit/Delete Post 
COMMERCIAL COOKING APPLIANCES. Appliances used in a commercial food service establishment for heating or cooking food and which produce grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors ........ For the purpose of this definition, a food service establishment shall include any building or a portion thereof used for the preparation and serving of food.

Based on the above definition we take the more restrict here.

--------------------
If you buy the statement you buy the underlying assumption.

Posts: 919 | From: Montana | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
dsjtecserv
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for dsjtecserv           Edit/Delete Post 
We go through this every time and I see no need to belabor it yet again. Do a search on the topic to see how it has been hashed out before.

IMC 507.2.3 doesn't hinge on the definition of commercial cooking appliance. There is no question that the appliance is NOT a commercial appliance; the topic concerns residential type appliances. If a residential appliance is used for commercial purposes, then it needs a hood, even though it is still a residential appliance. If it is not used for commercial purposes it does not need a hood, even though it might be located in a building that might otherwise be considered commercial.

The only question is whether the appliance is being put to commercial use. That's all.

Dave

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Posts: 619 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
north star
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for north star           Edit/Delete Post 
`

dsjtecserv,

If the question is asked to the church ( or other non-municipal entity ), I'm thinking that they would naturally say "No, it won't be for commercial purposes." On the other hand, if the question is asked to the AHJ, I would think that they would err to side of safety ( in the public's best interest of course ) and require the commercial type hoods. This response is based upon my experience(s) in dealing with churches. I also agree with fatboy's response. The churches want to feed the sheep, but also do some recruiting.

As always dsjtecserv, thanks for your continued and valuable input! [Smile]

`

[ 09-01-2009, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: north star ]

Posts: 245 | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
jim baird
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
5
 - posted      Profile for jim baird           Edit/Delete Post 
"...The local sanitation district has stated that they do not consider a churh as a grease producing occupancy..."

Looks like you are off the hook on grease. I guess in Colorado they don't make BBQ or Brunswick stew???

--------------------
IRC Combination, ICC Commercial Building, ICC Plans Examiner, SBCCI Housing Rehab

Posts: 1733 | From: Comer, GA USA | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
dsjtecserv
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for dsjtecserv           Edit/Delete Post 
Northstar -- True, and I wouldn't suggest leaving the question up to the church alone! I think the AHJ should consult with the church about the intended use, but then make a good-faith judgment about whether the nature of the usage is likely to create the degree of hazard for which the code says hoods are justified. I personally don't think that envisioning the worst case is a good way to approach that, because one can always imagine a "worser" case; by that measure even a plain old domestic range in a home should have a Type 1 hood ("but they MIGHT cook onion rings every night"!).

I see room for different judgments for different situations, and I don't think any one answer can be dictated. My only contention is that the judgment needs to be based on the criteria that the code gives, not other ones such as the occupancy of the building. Beyond that, I'm cool with the AHJ making the decision in good conscience.

Dave

[ 09-01-2009, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: dsjtecserv ]

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Posts: 619 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Uncle Bob
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for Uncle Bob           Edit/Delete Post 
Russ,

I have never delt with a Church that wanted to meet code safety requirements. I would require the hood requirement and mention (nicely) that they could take it to the Appeals Board.

Churches do a lot of cooking; and, although they are "tax exempt"; do a lot of commercial cooking.

Uncle Bob

--------------------
Putting back my e-mail address; osoros@hotmail.com (ps. my real name is not "Bob Hamilton"); just in case I find that I am not a "valued member". :(

Posts: 4405 | From: Central Texas | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Paul J. Clarke
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
5
 - posted      Profile for Paul J. Clarke           Edit/Delete Post 
Uncle Bob: you had better go to "confession" tonight! [Big Grin]

--------------------
C.B.O.--C.P.C.U.

Posts: 650 | From: Sioux Falls, S.D. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged
beach
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for beach           Edit/Delete Post 
These are some of our state fire marshals interpretations:

quote:
"In an R2 or R6 facility housing more than 6 clients, does the use of a 'regular' household type stove exempt the facility from the requirement to install a fire suppression system?
Specifically, in an R2.2 for mental health and/or developmentally disabled adults where 15 or more meals are cooked 3 times a day, 7 days a week; if they install a 'non-commercial' stove does that make them exempt from a suppression system even though more than steam cooking and boiling are done?"

Yes, California Mechanical Code section 509.1 requires a Type I hood and approved automatic fire-extinguishing system where commercial type cooking equipment is installed.

quote:
"If the suppression system is not required would we need a statement from them saying they do not cook anything that produces grease-laden vapors i.e. any meat, hamburgers, fried eggs, etc?"

No. There is no provision that requires this type of documentation.

quote:
"What is the definition of commercial-type cooking equipment and does the equipment supersede the type of cooking done?"

California Mechanical Code defines a commercial food heat-processing equipment as equipment used in a food establishment for heat-processing food or utensils and which produces grease vapors, steam, fumes, smoke or odors which are required to be removed through a local exhaust ventilation system.


quote:
"Do residential stoves in a kitchen located in the fire station require a Type I hood with suppression system?"

No. A residential stove is not commercial type cooking equipment as identified in 2001 California Mechanical Code Section 509.1, therefore does not require a Type I hood with fire suppression system.

--------------------
Catch, eat and release

Posts: 1277 | From: The SoCal beach | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
John Drobysh
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for John Drobysh           Edit/Delete Post 
Points to ponder...

A 'residential' listing would be null, void and of no use if the appliance is not installed "according to its' listing" (read as "if installed in other than a residential occupancy".)

My state code actually requires suppression in any commercial kitchen regardless of the equipment used. We seem to have had a rash of commercial kitchens installing 'residential' appliances to avoid hood reqs.

A Municipal Attorney once suggested to me (in regard to applying fees for residential or commercial) that a church is a 'house of G-d', and that the residential fee schedule should be used. Interesting take, but they paid the commercial fees...

--------------------
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!!!"

Posts: 1938 | From: Town of Montgomery, NY | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
dsjtecserv
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for dsjtecserv           Edit/Delete Post 
John:

I don't know, but I think you'll again find any limitations in the listing referring to the USE of the appliance for commercial purposes, not the location or occupancy. I've never heard of a manufacturer having a problem with domestic ranges being installed in fire station kitchens, break rooms and similar places, so long as it was not being used like a commercial appliance.

Dave

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Posts: 619 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Builder bob
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for Builder bob           Edit/Delete Post 
Odd.... 507.2.3 Domestic cooking appliances used for commercial purposes. Domestic cooking appliances utilized for commercial purposes shall be provided with Type I or Type II hoods as required for the type of appliances and processes in accordance with Sections 507.2, 507.2.1 and 507.2.2.


This specifically states domestic (residential listed appliance) used for commercial use which is not defined by the IMC.

Also Fire stations should have hoods w/ suppression systems, safe-t-elements, dead man switches, or some other fail safe device.

US fire Administration topical report states:

U.S. Fire Administration
TOPICAL FIRE RESEARCH SERIES
Volume 1, Issue 19
May 2001 (Rev. December 2001)
Fire Station Fires
FINDINGS
* Fire station fires most often originate in fire departments’ vehicles (44%); 37% of fires are structure fires.
* The leading cause of the approximately 150 fire station fires each year is attributed to “electrical distribution,” although “cooking” is the leading cause of structure fires.

Fire Administration Topical Report - Fire Station Fires

--------------------
Can you build to minimum standards? FWIW - MCP, CBO, CPE, CI, CFPE, ASCET
**********************************
**
www.notanicodesfan.org

Posts: 4199 | From: Lost in the South........ | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Builder bob
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for Builder bob           Edit/Delete Post 
As for churches - NFPA report state:

Religious and Funeral Properties
Jennifer Flynn, February 2007
Cost: $25.00 (free to the fire service). 29 pages. Order # USS12P.
Abstract: Religious and funeral properties include churches, temples, mosques, religious education facilities, funeral parlors and related properties. During 2000-2004, an estimated average of 1,810 structure fires were reported in these properties, causing an annual average of 2 civilian deaths, 16 civilian fire injuries, and $98 million in direct property damage. Fires in these properties accounted for 0.3% of all structure fires for the same time period. These estimates are based on data from the U.S. Fire Administration’s (USFA) National Fire Incident Reporting System (NFIRS) and the National Fire Protection Association’s (NFPA) annual fire department experience survey. The leading area of origin was in the kitchen and the leading item first ignited was cooking materials, including foods, when combined with confined cooking fires. Thirty-three percent of the direct property damage resulted from the ignition of structural members or framing.


Here is the free visitor fact sheet-
NFPA Fact Sheet

[ 09-02-2009, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Builder bob ]

--------------------
Can you build to minimum standards? FWIW - MCP, CBO, CPE, CI, CFPE, ASCET
**********************************
**
www.notanicodesfan.org

Posts: 4199 | From: Lost in the South........ | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kilitact
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
2
 - posted      Profile for Kilitact           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
OREGON
STATEWIDE INTERPRETATION
No. 507.2.3
(Revised version of IR 93-33)
OREGON MECHANICAL SPECIALTY CODE
SUBJECT: Hoods in churches, fire stations and/or day-care occupancies.
CODE SECTION: Oregon Mechanical Specialty Code, Section 507.2.3.
CODE EDITION: 2004 Oregon Mechanical Specialty Code
DATE: Revised October 1, 2006
QUESTION: Is a Type I or Type II range hoods required in all commercial occupancies like
churches, fire stations, daycare centers, etc.?
ANSWER: When domestic ranges and ovens are used for heating or occasional preparation of foods such as
lunches, potlucks, etc., a commercial hood is not required. If dinners are prepared on a regular basis, or more
than two residential ranges are used, a Type II hood is required. If a commercial range is installed or greaseproducing
equipment is used, a Type I hood must be installed. Although these structures may be considered
commercial occupancies, their kitchens are not considered commercial cooking establishments. As a general
rule, Section 507.2.3 indicates a Type I or II hood would be required for domestic appliances, but states when
the “Domestic cooking appliance (is) utilized for commercial purposesB.”. Most churches, fire stations, office
buildings, day care centers, etc. have small kitchens designed for occasional preparation of small meals for the
occupants of the building, but these kitchens are not designed or used for commercial cooking purposes. It is
important for the local jurisdiction to examine the frequency, duration and nature of the cooking operation(s)
before determining whether or not a commercial type exhaust hood is required for a particular cooking
facility.
The original 1981 interpretation (PPPI-4097) was limited to churches and/or day-care occupancies, but this
revised Interpretive Ruling expands the scope to include all occupancies which are of a similar nature, to
provide more flexibility to the building official.



--------------------
In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool.
Lord Chesterfield

Posts: 1056 | From: oregon | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mac
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for Mac           Edit/Delete Post 
From the Oregon interpretation:

"If dinners are prepared on a regular basis..."

"...or grease producing equipment is installed..."

A nearby church (NOT my jurisdiction) hosts an every Friday dinner for 40 to 50 people. What would the church need to do in Oregon?

--------------------
"I'd rather get hung for something I did, than for something I didn't do"

Posts: 187 | From: CNY | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
dsjtecserv
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for dsjtecserv           Edit/Delete Post 
BB:

Cooking-related fires are also one of the leading causes of structure fires in residential occupancies, but that, in and of itself, does not dictate the need for a commercial hood in people's houses, nor in other occupancies. The line the code draws, at commercial USE of the appliance, may or may not be met in a fire station or a church. As demonstrated in the other examples posted from California and Oregon, good guidance is available to help with the evaluation of whether or not that applies to a particular situation.

As with other terms that are not defined in the code, the general dictionary defintion of "commercial use" would be applied. We discussed that definition in previous threads, and it pretty much leads back to the criteria that are set forth in the CA and OR examples.

I agree that a fire station, of all places, can justify the use of fire safety equipment beyond what is required by the code. But just with respect to the need for a commercial hood, that requirement still hinges on the anticipated use of the appliance.

Dave

[ 09-03-2009, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: dsjtecserv ]

--------------------
http://www.pbase.com/dsjtecserv

Posts: 619 | From: Washington, DC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Kilitact
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
2
 - posted      Profile for Kilitact           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
A nearby church (NOT my jurisdiction) hosts an every Friday dinner for 40 to 50 people. What would the church need to do in Oregon?
Mac, what are they doing in cny? it sounds similar to a (sunday) weekly family gathering for some. I wouldn't look at that has a commercial kitchen.

--------------------
In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool.
Lord Chesterfield

Posts: 1056 | From: oregon | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mac
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for Mac           Edit/Delete Post 
Currently there is a galvanized type II hood, with a fan direct to exterior. They are using a six burner commercial range with oven.

Around here, Friday means fried fish, so (I'm guessing) they are pan frying the breaded fillets.

--------------------
"I'd rather get hung for something I did, than for something I didn't do"

Posts: 187 | From: CNY | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Kilitact
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
2
 - posted      Profile for Kilitact           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
They are using a six burner commercial range with oven.
quote:
If a commercial range is installed or greaseproducing equipment is used, a Type I hood must be installed.


--------------------
In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool.
Lord Chesterfield

Posts: 1056 | From: oregon | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Builder bob
Frequent Contributor


 - posted      Profile for Builder bob           Edit/Delete Post 
I think that 6 K is a small investment for a church or for a firestation. Construction costs run about $120.00 a square foot here. Fire trucks cost about 250,000 not including equipment. A hood with firesuppression is only 2.4% the cost of a fire engine and only equates to about 46 square feet of construction (closet size ) Sorry, seen to many things that could have been prevented, including lives lost from church fire in our region back in the mid 80's. I believe a great man quoted ”unless we study history, we are doomed to repeat it."

--------------------
Can you build to minimum standards? FWIW - MCP, CBO, CPE, CI, CFPE, ASCET
**********************************
**
www.notanicodesfan.org

Posts: 4199 | From: Lost in the South........ | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
rjj
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for rjj           Edit/Delete Post 
BB: I tend to agree with your thoughts. Most churches argue that the use of the stove is only for warming up things for pot luck dinners. However, more and more I see situations where the Saturday morning Bible study is supplied with Breakfast. Bacon, sausage, eggs and pan cakes. This will surly be a problem at some point. When you start to cook for 20,30, or more that is a fair amount of bacon and sausage. I have also notice that most don't even have a K fire extinguisher.
Posts: 2728 | From: S.Eastern PA | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
jar546
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
3
 - posted      Profile for jar546           Edit/Delete Post 
1) There are no exceptions for churches in this case.

2) Churches are one of the worst to deal with because they think nothing applies to them.

3) Safety first.

--------------------
Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections
www.InspectPA.com

Posts: 947 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
John Drobysh
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
4
 - posted      Profile for John Drobysh           Edit/Delete Post 
Jeff -

1) Correct

2) Correct

3) Always

--------------------
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and proclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!!!"

Posts: 1938 | From: Town of Montgomery, NY | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
pyrguy
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
5
 - posted      Profile for pyrguy           Edit/Delete Post 
I had a pastor tell me once that they were above the law as they are doing "God's work".

I asked him if, as a pastor, he was familiar with the Bible.

He said he was.

I then asked him about the book of Romans chapter 13.

He then said, 'point taken' and complied.

--------------------
Dwight, CBO, MCP

Looking for work. Resume here

e-mail is pyrguy at yahoo dot com

Posts: 248 | From: Metro Atlanta, GA | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Castelli
Junior Contributor


Rate Member
 - posted      Profile for Castelli           Edit/Delete Post 
What about one of those grey area systems like Guardian or Cooksafe?
Posts: 3 | From: VA | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


ICC Home Page

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3